Jim Pace not only is a clone of Scott Van Pelt from ESPN but he's also a pastor and lead navigator at [nlcf] in Blacksburg, VA and author of Should We Fire God? to be released April 8, 2010
A friend from Va. Tech responded to my post last night. He shared a personal experience that I think speaks to the challenge of this issue. He spoke so well, I think the wisest thing I can do is just let him say it… So, Peter?
Jim, I really think you should find some more controversial topics to cover on this blog. You’ve really been playing it safe here.
I’m also torn on this topic, Jim. We went through a time of not having enough money to handle health care costs for our family even though we both have college degrees and I was teaching full time (being a teacher was pretty much the main reason we couldn’t afford it!) so I have a little personal experience on “the other side of things.” Most of the people who are making the decisions and the people that are most upset about it have never had to make the decision whether or not to visit the doctor or get the medicine because of money or insurance coverage. Not everyone that struggles financially and has inadequate health care is a lazy bum taking advantage of welfare and government services. On a teacher’s salary in NC, our family qualified for medicaid services for our kids! I know the government is not the answer to all of our woes, but I think that many people screaming for no health care reform are a bit out of touch with reality in some ways.
I don’t have a solid opinion, but I fall somewhere in the middle wanting a balance of government intervention combined with accountability combined with private charitable help combined with good old-fashioned get out there and work to provide for your family. I guess that means I would be a lousy politician since I want a little slice of everything.
But seriously, Jim, let’s hit some serious topics soon…like puppies vs. kittens. Hope you’re enjoying the snow!
The experience of Tracy and I our first five-ish years of marriage was very similar. I had a college degree and was working with a church, and for at least a few of those years, was WELL under the poverty line. Please know that my wife and I are hard workers and responsible, I even did a stint as medical test subject for extra money, that is dedication eh? That is where we were.
I don’t believe it is the government’s responsibility to step in because the job I felt God was leading my into wasn’t supplying enough income. But I do still very much feel for those that are in the position that I no longer am in.
What are your thoughts on this?
I am torn when it comes to the health care debate. This report about a prominent and wealthy Canadian politician not utilizing Canada’s health care system and instead coming to the US for heart surgery, tears me more.
Now, I have friends that say that they are confused just so they don’t have to take a side. You know who you are.
This isn’t that. I really feel torn.
As a follower of Jesus and someone that believes in the guidance and illumination provided by the scriptures, I go to them to help me understand both the events that are occurring in our world today, and how I can increasingly reflect the heart and intent of Christ.
There is a sentence in the letter that James wrote to a large number of Christians that had been spread out, primarily through the persecution they had been receiving. They had received this persecution because they were followers of Jesus and they would have had a large number among them that would have needed help. People would have needed housing, food, and shelter. The basics. James wrote his letter in a very clear, very challenging manner to a group that need both clarity and challenge.
Pure and lasting religion in the sight of God our Father means that we must care for orphans and widows in their troubles, and refuse to let the world corrupt us. James 1.27
“We must care for orphans and widows in their troubles…” That isn’t the only way that we demonstrate our trust in the way of Christ, but it is an important one. God seems to care a great deal for those who are disadvantaged in our world.
When I line those words up against the reality that we have a lot of people that don’t seem to have adequate health care, I can
start to see the value of expanding the health care system to accommodate as many of those people as we can. Even if it is at a personal cost to me, I am willing to look at that.
There are also numerous, equally valid, scriptures in the book of Proverbs that would state that it is foolish to walk into a dangerous situation as if it were not so. Seeing that Danny Williams, who would have the ability to truly assess his options, would opt to leave for care is disturbing. Knowing that he chose to do so in spite of the outcry it would cause makes it even more so.
What am I missing in this?
I, like many who read this blog, have been angry this week. 
I have been angry at components of the Haitian government that have slowed the rescue efforts so many are risking their lives to be involved in.
I have been angry at myself for being able to do so little of value in the face of such suffering.
I have been angry that for every wonderful and miraculous rescue, there are probably twenty who aren’t.
I have been angry at how the death toll is guaranteed to continue to climb as lack of access to medicines, food and clean water will undoubtedly usher in who knows how many diseases.
I have been angry that child sex traffickers are using this as an opportunity to literally steal children and make them sex slaves.
I have been angry at God for not stopping this gigantic earthquake.
And I have been angry at Pat Robertson.
There are probably quite a few of us that became angry when we heard what he was quoted to have said. In such a time of anguish and desperation, the very suggestion that there is some communal Haitian fault for this — that they brought this on themselves — seems unconscionable. It seems cruel and wrong.
More than that, it is cruel and wrong.
Yes, I agree that God is sovereign, and as such has the capacity to do whatever he feels is best for our world. Yes, I agree that there are times when our very limited amount of insight can make it possible for us to totally miss the bigger picture that God, by necessity, works with all the time. Yes, I agree that there is a demonic realm that is very real and that can bring physical consequences.
But it is very hard for me to see how a God that would respond the way he has regarding the reconciliation of our world with himself, would seemingly karate-chop a major fault line in Haiti because of some vagely alleged, century old, decisions. A God that would take the penalty for all of the rebellion caused by humanity on himself. A God that would voluntarily decide to simultaneously experience the horrific pain of a Roman cross and the crushing weight of our cumulative rebellion – while also experiencing the sensation of watching his son be tortured and killed as an innocent – while also experiencing the pain of having to watch the whole thing unfold, all the while knowing that he could stop it, but knowing that he must not. I don’t think we can touch that level of suffering in our experience.
He took it all, voluntarily. So that we could be with him. Willingly. Lovingly.
A God like that doesn’t karate-chop fault lines.
I do believe that evil caused what happened. Our world has plenty of demonstrations of the evil the the scriptures point to being more than just a theological or philosophical construct. The greed that caused the Duvalier family to set back what could have been a much more advanced Haiti, by decades. Crushing poverty that forces people to simply exist and all but prevents them from thriving. Fear that helps to turn one person against another. That helps gangs, and not coalitions, be formed. And I believe that what we see everywhere on the social level is represented in the physical one. It would seem that even the creation, the planet, isn’t working in sync like it should – fault lines included. I don’t believe that earthquakes were ever the intention of God. I think that our relational brokenness with one another and the planet’s brokenness go hand in hand. We all await a re-creation.
But, ugggh, to the issue of my apology.
There is a part of me that has come to expect Pat and others to say what he did. Things that not only do not represent my view of how scripture reveals the character of God, but they even make my task of representing Christ in our world much more difficult. I have to deal with what they say more often than I would prefer. It is often assumed that their views represent mine, that because we both would share the label, Christian, we look at the world through the same lens. I have often said that it seems like I seem to walk into other peoples’ issues with God, I think views like what Pat shared, create a lot of those issues.
So, my heart has grown a bit cold to Pat and so many others. Granted, in my cluster of friends, church planters and thinkers, going after some of those guys is pretty common. We joke about them, roll our eyes, maybe mock them a bit.
But mouthing off wrongly about how he mouths off wrongly doesn’t seem to be the right way to go.
The reality is that Pat has done some good things over the years. The one I personally feel best about is Operation Blessing, a non-profit that has provided disaster and hunger relief for over 192 million people in over 90 countries, and in its history has provided over one billion dollars worth of goods and services.
The reality is, Operation Blessing has helped a lot of people. People have eaten as a result of Operation Blessing that wouldn’t have without it. Homes have been rebuilt. Those people matter.
So, that helps. At least me. At least some.
It helps me see him as more of a three dimensional person, not the cranky personality he seems to have become. It helps me see him as a man that has done some good and some bad, like me. And it makes me reflect a bit more on Romans, chapter two.
“But if you think … you can point your finger at others, think again. Every time you criticize someone, you condemn yourself… Judgmental criticism of others is a well-known way of escaping detection in your own crimes and misdemeanors. But God isn’t so easily diverted. He sees right through all such smoke screens and holds you to what you’ve done.” Rom 2.1,2 Message.
In this section of Paul’s letter to the church in Rome, God is saying that all of us can claim the moral high ground, but it is rarely deserved. And even if we are actually on the right side of an issue, we cannot allow that to cause us to become arrogant. God sees through our charades, he sees our heart… This section doesn’t tell us we cannot talk about what is right and wrong in our world, it simply reminds us that while we do, remember that we are every bit as in need of God’s grace as anyone else.
It makes me think about me, making fun of Pat Robertson. I condemn myself. Yes, I think what he said was wrong. But I spoke out of anger, not to help him — but to have some fun at his expense.
Dang!
It doesn’t change the fact that his words were unthinkable. It doesn’t change the fact that any hope of Pat having a lasting semi-mainstream legacy seems to ride on someone from his inner-circle telling him in love that he needs to apologize and then to be quiet. He was irresponsible and his words were cruel.
But it reminds me that any of us are capable of the same thing.
No doubt, by we have all seen the horror unfold in Haiti. A 7.0 earthquake hit right on a fault line six miles underground and ten miles southwest of Port-au-Prince and has devastated
much of the country. Already 80% of Haitians live below the poverty line with 80% in abject poverty. If you have ever been to Haiti then you know much of the country’s infrastructure has been poorly constructed and is now decimated. The worst earthquake to hit the country in 200 years.
You may know some relief organizations that are working in the area or that can mobilize quickly. If you do, give to them, if not, here are some options that we know about. Please post in and add to our list.
American Red Cross — you can text HAITI to 90999 and your cell account will be billed $10
Project Esperanza — actually located in the Dominican Republic, but works extensively with Haitian orphans in the DR, will have useful connections on the ground.
Haiti Emergency Relief Organization –
Baptist Haiti Mission — 100% of donations go to the relief effort. The BHM hospital in Fermanthe, Haiti is the only hospital serving the surrounding mountain villages.
Here are some additional agencies that I ran across on Bread for the World, a group that I am just starting to learn about, but that I really like so far. I only have a minute to post this, so no hotlinks.
* Catholic Relief Services
* Christian Reformed World Relief Committee
* Church of the Brethren
* Church of the Nazarene
* Church World Service
* Covenant World Relief
* Episcopal Relief and Development
* International Orthodox Christian Charities
* Lutheran World Relief
* Presbyterian Church USA
* Reformed Church in America
* Salvation Army
* United Methodist Committee on Relief
* World Hope International
* World Relief
* World Vision
Please add to this list or give feedback on what is already listed.
God seems to have a very important place in his heart for widows, orphans…people that are in desperate positions. We are called to love them and help them. We simply must do this now.
Micah 6.8 tells us this. “… the Lord has already told you what is good, and this is what he requires: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.” This isn’t the whole story between us and God, but our care for those who need that care is a part we simply cannot afford to pass over.
Please do something, and post your ideas here for things that we can do as well.
Peace
Overall, I don’t get into a lot of the debate about big business pro’s and con’s. It is a valuable discussion to have, but there are many that can offer more meaningful and thought-provoking information than I could. So, I ordinarily leave it to them. But this is awful. I cannot even fathom why it could happen. In New York City, about one third of the population falls below the poverty line. How could this ever be approved by anyone as a good decision? It breaks my heart…warm socks for kids, intentionally cut up, shoes, coats, pants and sweaters. This just shouldn’t be.
Here is the link for the New York Times article, and the photo is courtesy of Suzanne DeChillo/The New York Times.
I talk to a lot of people. I mean A LOT of people.
Partially because I am a people guy. I really like them. I believe that each person I meet is a very important and individual creation of God. That makes each of them far more important than they or I can imagine. So…I am a big fan.
But I also am in ministry. I am a pastor of an amazing and flawed church everyone calls [nlcf]. Granted, it isn’t a very traditional church and I may not be the most traditional pastor, but one thing that being a pastor predicatably brings is you talk with a lot of people. 
I mean A LOT of people.
This is not a problem, because I am a fan, remember?
One of the things I talk with a lot of people about, whether they are followers of Jesus or not, is God. Again, predictable. When I talk with people about God obviously there is a range of things we discuss, but one thing comes up more than most.
The list.
Now almost no one uses that term, but that is what it is. It is the list of the things that make getting closer to God harder. The times that we tried to trust him and it didn’t work out, the times that we asked for something and it didn’t happen. Various relationships that might have fallen apart even though we desperately didn’t want them to. The people in our family or beyond them, that suffer from debilitating illness or have lost the fight to that illness. Jobs that have been lost or cannot be found. Unfairness that seems to be everywhere. So often, those that don’t deserve to win do, and those that could really have used that win, don’t.
Here is what can happen. I say can because it doesn’t happen all the time to everyone, but in my experience it does happen to almost all of us at some point. What can happen is that we take those times where we feel that God didn’t step in as he should and we add many of them to our list. The times God has not been predictable or has not handled things the way we would want him to. We take them, remember them…and when the times comes to really step out in trust with God again, we don’t.
It was once said, “If you cannot be a wise person, at least be near them.” I really don’t think I could add to what Wendy shared. She is one of the smartest women I know, so I take her words respectfully. Wendy, thank you for adding your thoughts to the mix, it is better for them.
To Stephen, Curtis, Micheal, both my friends, and everyone who has participated or read this discussion, thanks for doing so. Hopefully we have all been stretched by this discussion, I am certain that I was.
And I really cannot think of any way to close this discussion out that is better than allowing my friend, who my initial posting was about, the last word. He just did so, and beautifully.
So, to end this discussion, at this time…
I have a friend who is gay.
Well, not really, that just makes for a good opening line.
The friend I am talking about would technically be considered a non-practicing male homosexual. He would also describe himself as someone who struggles with his same sex attraction.
My friend is mostly excited about the opportunity to be open about his life.
Mostly.
well… here we are… 2010. wow.
so, there have been a lot of postings on the blog since i have last meaningfully posted myself. in my last post, i said that i would answer stephen’s questions of why is this an issue at all? very fair question and a good one to look at.
what have done is posted the link to a series [nlcf] did, probably 7ish years ago. it is called, the hate people. the premise is that often the church (or at least the evangelical portion of it) has been characterized by a fairly small subset of attention grabbing individuals. they believe what they say and are allowed to say it. and they get the lion’s share of the microphone time.
and they often do not at all represent what i think. or what many of my friends think.
so we posed the question, are Christians the hate people? we seem to be known for what we are against, what we picket, what we protest. is that a clear representation of Christ’s heart for our generation?
we asked the questions: does God hate those who worship other religions, homosexuals, the environment and women? all issues that we felt were very intense, and ones where i (and many others) would say our views are misunderstood or misrepresented.
i include the talk i did on the issue of homosexuality with a few caveats. the first; remember, i did this talk six or seven years ago. you will notice that i use you know quite a bit, i also really seemed to like the phrase, these things. you will hear it. alot. sorry. essentially, as a communicator i was still reasonably new, so you will see some of that. also related to that, i have a misstatement about the old testament. i essentially said it did not apply any longer. i was referring to how some components don’t, you will see that when you hear the comment. it just came out wrong.
secondly; some of the terms i used then would be different now. partially that is because i have some greater clarity on how some of those terms can strike people, and some of that is from the fact that preferences about some of those terms have changed over the years.
thirdly, as my life with God continues, i continue to grow and evolve in my understanding of who He is and how He feels about humanity and the universe we inhabit. so to say that my views are exactly what they were when this talk was given, would be to assume that i haven’t grown or changed at all. i will say that some of my views have changed, but enough are similar enough, that this talk still describes my views well.
finally, my friend chris backert handled two of the talks. he and i were very close then and are still today, but i make no claims as to whether or not he holds all of the views he shared exactly as they were shared then.
as for the myriad of questions and accusations or indications of frustration at what i am doing or not doing/thinking or not thinking/representing or not representing, by supporting my friend… i will look at those again over the next few days and decide if i feel that i need to reply to any of them. i am aware of some peoples’ perceptions of me based on my views. i am not sure anything i say will convince anyone differently and will hope that those who know me the best will see Christ the most clearly in me. while many of them were either frustrating or hurtful to read, discussion like this one will bring those out. it is what it is, eh?
peace.
I am a big fan of 24. I, like many others, fear it is becoming a bit predictable; and I, like many others, can end the season pleading with Jack to speak with a reasonable indoor voice and not that growling whisper. I also would ask everyone else on the show to stop calling him Jack Bauer. Come on… how long have you known him? Call him Jack…J-an…anything… (okay, the whole J-Man thing is stupid… that doesn’t help at all)
But, as we get beyond that, I think we can all agree that we are all curious about this strange bearded man from the North Pole who seems to have a upsetting amount of information about us. He knows when we sleep? Bad or good? And then, the slight threat; You better watch out, you better not cry, you better not pout I’m telling you why… We may not like the way Jack Bauer talks, and we may not like that everyone calls him Jack Bauer. But we need him.
Jack gets to the bottom of it. Finally. Take a look.
It is a bit intense and Jack drops some foul language…
But then, that, my friends is how Jack Bauer rolls… Take a look…
(title and first line edited from earlier version)
I have a friend who is same sex attracted.
The friend I am talking about would technically be considered a non-practicing male homosexual. He would also describe himself as someone who struggles with his same sex attraction.
And today we will speak for himself. I asked him if he would answer a few questions and he has done so. I am sure he will take your questions as well…
So… my friend…
What’s the most difficult part of dealing with homosexuality, and how does being a leader in a church make that worse?
I can only speak for my experience, although I’ve heard many homosexual Christian men say the same thing, that loneliness is the most difficult part of this. The unmet longing for companionship and intimacy. Some days that longing is literally an aching in my chest, like someone is squeezing my heart. Imagine watching all your friends grow up, graduate from school, marry their sweetheart–you know, progress through life normally–while you stay stuck in singleness, not because you’ve chosen it, but because you’re attracted to the same sex, and acting on that would violate your faith. It’s awful. Leadership in the church brings its own loneliness. People look at you like you’ve got your act together, like you’re just a little bit, if not a lot, closer to God than everyone else. They set you apart–alone–in the their minds. And since the church hardly understands homosexuality or how to address the people affected by it, there is a strong temptation to just hide, to be alone with your thoughts and not let anyone know what’s going on in you.
You’ve talked about feeling alone. Do you ever feel angry? What makes you angry?
Questions and stories – these are some of the honest ways we humans grapple with God and faith. By this count, Jim Pace is a very honest writer, a storyteller with the courage to help us face our deepest questions.
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