(title and first line edited from earlier version)
I have a friend who is same sex attracted.
The friend I am talking about would technically
be considered a non-practicing male homosexual. He would also describe himself as someone who struggles with same sex attraction. The term “gayâ€, in its more specific usage, tends to refer to those who have embraced or identified with the homosexual community. My friend has not.
I actually have a number of friends that would describe themselves as same sex attracted. Some very much wish they were not, and others are embracing of it. But this isn’t about them, it is about this one friend.
I also know that some may wonder about my “friendâ€. Am I making up the friend idea and talking about coming out myself. Nope, there really is a friend. Now, I will not debate that I score very high on most metro-sexual quizzes. (My fav deals with the question “
Back to my friend. He is a devout follower of Jesus. A leader in his church. He was never molested. He doesn’t ever remember making a choice to be attracted to guys, he just is.
And he is struggling with that attraction. And he is struggling with the implications of that attraction, on his friends, his future, his faith. He believes that his same sex attraction is not a reflection of the desire of Christ for his life, and so he is working very hard to walk past it. Not ignore it. Not sublimate it. Not simply transfer it and hope to become some horndog that lusts after every woman that passes by.
But he believes he can resolve it. Walk through it. Learn from it. Then walk out.
I think he can too.
Now, I know what some who are reading this might think. I have seen the looks, the rolls of the eyes, the sigh that must be emitted when in the presence of someone as apparently backward as he and I must be to “still believe it is wrong.†I have been in the conversations where the other person almost palpably lowers my IQ based on my views.
I have been called backward, intellectually retarded, that I am only believing this arcane thing because I was told it by my parents, my pastor growing up, some stupid book.
Those people really don’t know me if they think that.
But this isn’t about me. It is about my friend who is attracted to guys.
And he is about to do something that I greatly respect him for. In a few months he will be honest about it. Right now his friends know, in a few months, everyone will.
I am so excited for him. May the freedom to be real and honest that he will soon feel be transferred to so many who don’t feel that yet. Who are waiting for someone to pave the way.
I, and he, cannot wait.
Mike Haggerty said...
1Great post, Jim!
11/19/09 8:36 PM | Comment Link
Curtis said...
2Jim,
I sent you a message through your blog. I hope you respond. I’d like to talk with you.
11/23/09 3:48 PM | Comment Link
Curtis said...
3I’ve been going to NLCF off and on through undergrad, and now grad school (admittedly much less often since I started grad school). I was forwarded your blog post by a friend, and I’m concerned.
I’d like to bring up a terminology issue. Sexual orientation is an identity based on sexual preferences/desires, not a practice. Gay and homosexual are synonymous; the term homosexual is more clinical and should be used whenever heterosexual would otherwise be used, and gay is usually the preferred term. It is pretty weird to say that somebody is a homosexual but not gay, because they haven’t embraced the lgbt broader culture, or is “non practicing”. In that case, most of my friends would be considered non practicing heterosexuals because they are straight but aren’t having sex with people of the opposite sex, and I would be considered a “non practicing bisexual” because I’m not having sex with anyone. You could instead describe your friend as struggling with his sexuality/homosexuality/being gay/sexual orientation/same sex attractions/etc.
I strongly urge you to not advise your friend to try to change his sexual orientation. Every study ever done on the subject has shown that it is not possible to choose your sexual orientation, and there has never been a case where a person has been able to change their sexual desires. Even the “most successful” programs advertise only helping change a person’s actions, not sexual identity. I have spoken with a great number of people who have spent years, tens of thousands of dollars, and energy into trying to change orientation and sexual attractions, and every single person has been wholly unsuccessful, and they all have said the process resulted in a lot of personal agony.
Everyone is certainly free to have their own interpretations of the Bible, and even if we disagree on whether or not being gay, or having same-sex relationships, is sinful in the eyes of God, I hope we can agree that encouraging your friend to change his sexual attractions, which has been proven many times over to be impossible to forcibly change through any means, would not be helpful to him.
11/24/09 12:37 PM | Comment Link
jim said...
4i am really grateful to curtis for sharing his views here. he had emailed me and i had asked if he would be willing to move them here. one to broaden the discussion and two to avoid yet another crazy long gmail thread.
curtis, again, i am also very grateful for your gentleness of response. i have known many christians that have been very cruel in their “debates” with the lgbt community and have seen just as much vitriol from the lgbt community as well. here’s to meaningful and respectful discussion about matters of great importance.
i will post back my reflections on your post next week. i want to have the time to reflect carefully and then have the time to post meaningfully.
again, thanks.
happy thanksgiving everyone.
jim
11/24/09 1:29 PM | Comment Link
Dave said...
5Let’s say I have this “friend” (quotations intended) in a monogamous heterosexual marital relationship who finds himself attracted to multiple other women in addition to and sometimes instead of the one to whom he is married. This attraction has been part of his biology since as long as he remembers. He has tried repeatedly to direct his interest towards one woman, but has never able to overcome his polygamous desires.
The Bible appears to require that he change his natural inclination, though his experience and the experience of many others is that this is impossible to do. He has all but given up hope that he will ever permanently change. Times of intense focus on monogamy usually result in an underlying stress and a rebound effect into a stronger attraction to other women.
Is this another discussion altogether or is it related?
If it is related, why are Christians so much more interested in the possibility of changing the desires of the one homosexual who occasionally crosses their path over the million heterosexuals who sit beside them every Sunday?
11/25/09 9:51 AM | Comment Link
jim said...
6hey curtis,
hope you had a good thanksgiving. i had a great one myself.
thank you for your input regarding my terminology. i will try to explain why i selected those terms and also try to clarify something that was not stated as well as it should have been. my friends that say that they are attracted to their same sex (again, whether that attraction is an issue for them or not) have tended to use the term “gay community” to reference the lgbt subculture. that subculture certainly doesn’t deal exclusively with matters of sexuality, but my friends would say that their sexuality is a part of the overall subculture. they would tend to identify it as a subculture just as i would identify myself as a part of the christian subculture. those in that subculture don’t just sit around and talk about the bible and christian issues, but those issues are key impactors of what that group would do. does that make sense? so in my understanding someone could be same-sex attracted yet not a part of a larger sub-cultural group in the same way that someone could be a christ follower and not a part of that larger sub-cultural group. as for the issue of “non-practicing”, i have to admit, it made me chuckle. good point. i have read a number of articles and books that use that term to make a distinction between those that experience the attraction and act on it and those that experience the attraction and don’t. i did like that point though. 🙂
where i would probably disagree more strongly would be on your stating that no study ever done has supported the view that change can happen and that no one has ever changed that aspect of themselves. personally, I have friends that have. these are friends that have been honest with me both about the strength of their attraction toward the same sex and now their attraction toward the other sex. they know my commitment to them isn’t based on this any more than any other issue in either of our lives and they have no reason to mislead me. in several cases i have seen them over the course of years and they haven’t regretted it. there are some of them that would say that during times of great stress they still tend to be more attracted to the same sex, and there are some that would say they are not. one in particular says he is really only attracted to women now.
they would tend to describe themselves the way i describe myself being a married guy. due to my past in pornography, during times of stress i have to be careful not to revert back to that as a form of distraction. so now, if that temptation presents itself, i remind myself of how i want to live as a follower of jesus and as tracy’s husband. that is the type of thing i hear from my friends that have shifted to a heterosexual life style. for some of them, it is to the point where they can identify it as an issue they don’t want to involve themselves in and find that meaningful physical, emotional and spiritual connection in their wives/ husbands.
i also have other friends that will say they cannot imagine shifting that attraction. some of those are in therapy and are moving closer to that point and others, due to the strength of those attractions have adopted a viewpoint that their homosexuality and their christianity are not at odds at all.
if it is of interest i will get the references to a number of studies that have shown that homosexuality is something that is very deeply ingrained and yet also changeable. there are quite a few of them out there. in this area i would say i am especially cautious. i would say that on either extreme, some of the studies that have been done are questionable. unfortunately the science has occasionally taken a back seat to the overarching views of the researches (again, on both sides). but there are definitely trustworthy and reliable studies out there that show that someone’s sexual orientation and sexual attraction can shift and in fact does. not with the same level of ease or difficulty in everyone, i have learned over the years that there are too many variables in any persons’ life to make a process like this one too consistent across people.
to close, this post at least, my friends that are same sex attracted that have been hurt by the church would say this to the church. “don’t over-simplify me. don’t tell me why i am the way that i am when you don’t really know me”… they would say many other things as well — and much of the church needs to hear them — but they essentially resent being oversimplified based on the gender they are attracted to. my friends that are seeking to overcome their same sex attraction often feel the same towards the lgbt community. they would say “don’t tell me what i can or cannot do as a result of my relationship with christ.” they would want the lgbt community to support them, regardless of their decision, simply because the lgbt community knows their pain better than most.
curtis, sorry this was so long, but i wanted to give this the attention it deserves. hope to hear from you again soon. would also love to connect sometime in person.
jim
sorry this is so long but i wanted to speak as carefully as i can. these can be hot-button issues and i very much want to discuss them in a calm manner. again, thanks for you post.
11/30/09 9:32 AM | Comment Link
jim said...
7wow, dave, really liked your post as i was just reading it again.
here are my thoughts… at least the start of them…
to answer your first question, yes, i think the two scenarios deal with similar issues. to answer you second, i very much agree that the church needs to be as focused on disobeying God from within a heterosexual framework as it is on disobeying God from a homosexual framework. i would say those christians that are more focused on the homosexual issue do so for a variety of reasons. most of them aren’t good. if you would like to know what i think they are, repost and ask and i will gladly tell you.
where i would disagree with your post is in the second paragraph. first, i would argue that depending on how you define “natural inclination”, what you said may or may not be the case. in very broad strokes, the way i understand our situation before God, as described in the bible, is this. we were created to have our most natural response be to worship God and love one another purely and unselfishly. since that time of creation, humanity has rebelled against God, pushed him away and essentially told him we would rather handle the world on our own. as a result, humanity (and the planet with it) has experienced a degeneration of sorts. we all suffer from it. as a result, we no longer respond to how we were naturally made to respond. so, in some senses, i would say your “friend” is, in the most cosmic sense, behaving unnaturally. all that said, i get your point.
he is attracted to multiple women, sometimes that includes his wife and sometimes it doesn’t. it sounds like, being a basically good guy, he fights that off at times. so he has seasons of focus on his monogamy, but those seasons ultimately end with him being even more focused on other women and perhaps even acting on those attractions.
am i getting it right?
if so, i would say this. it sounds like your friend is allowing the people around him, who may be great or not, and who may be strong in that area or not, to determine what he is capable of. i am not trying lessen his struggle or the difficulty of this issue in his life. however, my suggestion would be that if anyone just tries to repress or push down something they don’t like in themselves, while it can often work for a while, ultimately they experience what your friend is experiencing. i would suggest that asking the question about what his attraction (and acting out of that attraction) to mulitple women accomplishes in his life. often a counselor can help someone get to the bottom of that much more quickly than he could get there himself.
i realize that might be more info than you were looking for, but i talk with a lot of guys about these very issues and so i guess i got on a bit of a run, eh?
please repost with your thoughts on mine.
peace,
jim
11/30/09 11:26 AM | Comment Link
Curtis said...
8Jim,
My Thanksgiving was amazing, I even got to cook this year 🙂
Subcultures:
Your “same sex attracted” friends are gay. They are part of the “gay community” (we prefer glbt community or queer community most of the time, since gay usually refers to men who are attracted only to men and our community encompasses more than that). Comparing religion to sexual orientation the way you have is invalid. Being Christian comes with a set of behavioral rules that you must follow, but that is not true of being queer (I like the word queer as an umbrella term to mean anything not-straight — way faster than listing out lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transexual, same gender loving, etc). You are projecting bias and stereotypes of how people act, and speaking as if your gay friends are not a part of the “gay community”. They are. The queer community is actually a really interesting thing to study, because we come from every single group of people in the world. As a result, the actions of our people vary much more than probably any other group. Being a part of the “gay community” does not dictate how a person acts, and is not a key impactor on what a group does.
Changing Sexual Orientation:
I’ve had this conversation in hundreds of iterations, and I will be very surprised if we ever agree on this. There will always be some random study that claims whatever you want to argue for, but we need to be cautious of what we take as a legitimate source of information. I liken it to that Young Earth Creationist Speaker Kent Hovind that was brought to Tech a few years ago — he wasn’t credible and his “science” was disproven many times over by several experts across all scientific backgrounds.
The APA released their “Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation” in August of this year. I personally thought the entire thing was a really good read, but most people find it a little dry and hard to follow, but the Appendix A/Research Summary and Resolution is pretty concise. It basically says that you should not tell people they can change their sexual orientation — that no methodology or program, including faith-based ones, have scientifically or empirically proven to change a person’s sexual orientation. Some have reported changes in behavior and values — ie, encouraging people to stop engaging in sexual activities but not changing sexual desires. The report also says that many people who attempt conversion therapy are harmed by it. The report covers a metric ton of case studies, including recent ones done in the late 2000s. The APA is as unbiased as a group of people studying something can get, and they are also highly skilled and knowledgeable experts in the field — far more than you (and unfortunately me as well), so I think their opinions should carry far more weight than ours. I linked the APA press release as my website on this post, and the full text of the report is available at the bottom of that page.
To Your Gay Friend:
Before you commit yourself to conversion therapy, I strongly urge you to read up on what it would actually entail, including methods and success rates. There are other options, and there is a growing number of people that have resolved any issues with faith and sexuality, and live healthy, happy, Christian lives as openly glbt people.
For me personally, what really helped was a good look at the historical context of sexuality and the evolution of terminology and identities. Out of the entire Bible, there is only a handle (5-12ish depending on your translation) of passages that can possibly relate to homosexuality. Jesus never spoke about it. The idea of two men or two women in a loving committed relationship didn’t exist during the writing of any portion of the Bible, and the term homosexual didn’t appear until 1869. The Extreme Christian Right’s war against queer people is a pretty recent thing.
I also think that the Bible was written so long ago that much has been lost in translation. Some things like shellfish or cotton-polyester blends are expressly forbidden. One of the most basic moral questions, “is it okay to own another person?”, the Bible got wrong. We clearly can’t take everything in the Bible literally, and for me it is best used as a guideline, not a strict set of rules to follow so that I may get into Heaven and not be burned for all eternity.
There is no magic formula for feeling one with God or for being happy, and what works for me may not work for you. But I think we should be completely honest with what options are available, and the likelihood of a happy ending with each of those options.
Love, peace, and chicken grease
Curtis
12/1/09 11:47 AM | Comment Link
jim said...
9hey curtis, glad to hear about the good thanksgiving and the cooking. hope everyone that ate it was glad as well!
i will post a response either tomorrow or the day after. loved what you had to say and am very much enjoying the discussion. thanks for taking the time to continue it.
12/2/09 12:15 PM | Comment Link
jim said...
10hey curtis,
sorry for the delay in replying. these past two weeks have been busy and so time to reflect, listen to what you are saying, and then to respond meaningfully has been tough to come by! what will probably work best is if i respond back to you a paragraph at a time. hope that is cool. that way, we can keep this very interesting conversation rolling along.
so… as for paragraph one, i am cool with whatever label you apply. the reality is that i have heard from some friends say that “queer” is too strong for their taste. i applaud the fact that a word that has traditionally been used as a derogatory term is being “demagnetized” (from an essay by ramon johnson), still i will probably stick with lgbta or glbta. i have some jewish friends who disagree in a similar fashion surrounding the term “heb”. even the term “christian” was started as an insult! so i am all for taking something that has symbolized something bad and turning it around…
i actually think my comparison between the two subcultures sticks, and actually for the reasons you stated. you said that being in the glbta community doesn’t come with a set of rules. i would say the same is true of the christian community. what they both have is a very broad range of thought and behavior that would likely coalesce under the banner of its name. it is indicative that each is called what it is called and not something else. neither only reflect that issue, they both deal with much more, but my point is that they are not named what they are named randomly. the name is a descriptor. not the only one, but a descriptor nonetheless.
i will check in with my friend to see if he would say i am projecting bias towards him, or if he notices bias in my tone towards others. my hope is certainly not. my point was that my friend who is experiencing attraction to other men has the right to discern whether or not those attractions are desired. he also has the right to decide whether he interacts with others in the glbta subculture as it pertains to his sexuality. he may choose to interact with the glbta community over political issues that matter to he and they, or issues of social justice or artistic expression, or some shared sporting interest. if i were to deign to speak for him, my guess is he would say that his heart is not to avoid anyone that shares an attraction to their same sex. i would think he would say that he would simply not choose to interact with a group (regardless of the name on it) where those attractions are promoted predominantly. i will check in with him on this though.
as we move into your second set of thoughts, i agree with you! my undergraduate major was psychology, which at va. tech is taught as a research based science. so i have read (during my time at tech and since) more research on more topics than i could ever hope to remember! and i couldn’t agree more, we shouldn’t just gravitate towards research that strengths our preconceived ideas. that isn’t science.
finally, at least for today… i am not a young earth-er. 🙂
will post again in a day or two.
peas on earth, gouda wheel, two men
(the punch line to a christmas card i saw last year)
jim
12/8/09 1:43 PM | Comment Link